<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">To all,</font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">My intention was to explain qso numbers so the concept of qso numbers is understood (I didn't invent qso numbers, i'm not trying to justify them, just trying to explain them). It was also intended to show that the qso number itself is a common topic used elsewhere in life. If something can be shown to be like something that is already understood then one can more easily understand the topic. Understanding the concept is important to coming up with solutions. One has to know "what" to do before they can figure out "how" to do it. The original email was intended to help understand "what" needs to be done. There are so many possible "how" to do it's that we can't possibly iterate them all. There isn't a one size fits all solution.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">Setting up a multi transmitter contest station is not simple... from an RF perspective or a logging perspective or any perspective. I never said multi-transmitter station setup was simple. I said the concept of the qso number is simple... until you add a computer and software that is not setup to meet the requirements of a multi-transmitter setup. </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">There are many possible solutions. Solutions are up to the entrant. Not all solutions involve computers in real-time. </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">Experienced folks are available on the reflector to help but we don't know your situation... what equipment do you have, what antennas do you have, what operators do you have (are they ssb only cw only or ssb/cw ops), what computers do you have, what experience do you have, are you using an existing set of antennas or are you setting up from scratch, etc, etc.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">The idea behind rules are to present the requirements upon which the entrants are judged. It is not to iterate all the possible ways to implement the subject matter. OhQP rules are consistent with other major contest rules.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">As always if anyone is interested in obtaining help, dump the question out on the reflector. There are many people on the reflector who are willing to help. It helps if you ask a question rather than treating the reflector as your own personal blog stating how things should be done in the world according to you (this kind of post will result in read the manual answers). There are some who will criticize whatever you put out (it's the same handful of people all the time that never have anything good to say, it won't take you long to figure out who they are).</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">My only intention in saying that I've been able to solve these issues is to say that there are solutions. It's not to say I'm any better or worse than anyone else. It's not to say that my solutions are the only solutions. Just to say there are solutions but you have to be persistent and have to be creative and have to be willing to invest time, effort and money. If you are looking for an off the shelf simple solution to life's challenges... you'll likely be frustrated. If you're willing to spend some time and effort you can work something out that will allow you to get involved and have fun. Planning/Building the station is half the fun. Operating the station is the other half of the fun. The sense of satisfaction derived from planning, building and operating is priceless. You will always come away with things that work and things that didn't work and this changes every year. That's part of the fun and what keeps us coming back year after year.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">I tend to be a person who helps people learn to fish rather than feeding them a fish dinner. This approach apparently bothers some who just want to be fed fish dinner for life. Basically, I don't want to tell anyone what to do. I'll help figure out what to do, if asked, but I'm not going to tell you what to do. It's your operation.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">Good luck however you choose to operate OhQP. The important thing is to get on and have fun.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">As always donating my time and technical abilities to try and help make the OhQP/MiQP/MRRC better for all.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5">73, Tim K9TM</font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Hank Greeb <<a href="mailto:n8xx@arrl.org">n8xx@arrl.org</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">July 7, 2012 10:55:12 PM EDT<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">K9TM <<a href="mailto:k9tm@buckeye-express.com">k9tm@buckeye-express.com</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [OhQP-mail] QSO numbers an explanation</b><br></span></div><br>
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<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman">Tim:<br>
<br>
It would be very simple to say in the OHQP rules:<br>
<br>
"With whatever logging system is used, be very careful that
there are no duplicate numbers assigned to contacts for any
band/mode."</font></font><font size="+1"><font face="Times New
Roman"> Explaining several ways to "make the kludge" of non
networked software work in a multi-multi environment would be
useful. Saying they MUST use a separate numbering system for
each band and mode presents a BIG obstacle to many folks.</font></font>
<br>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman"><br>
Or, you could change the rules so "5NN COUNty" was the exchange,
which would solve the entire problem.<br>
<br>
Telling us that you are a genius, who has used networked
software since the sp*rk gap days is a non sequitur. Networked
software hasn't been common, except perhaps amongst the "high
powered contest elite" for casual use until very, very
recently. For example, it took me two years to figure out N1MM,
and a year to enlist the aid of ham who does networking of
computers for a living to set up the network for our local field
day this year. I knew that N1MM was being advertised as
containing a networked version, and figured that if we could
figure it out, it would really help our cause. But, until this
last year, the manuals were written by and for the experts, and
were plain gibberish to the casual user. Some of the tutorials
which have recently been written are almost understandable by a
common dolt like me.<br>
<br>
</font></font><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman">I, for
one, was very fortunate to find a local ham who was very patient
with my "stupid questions" and even "repeat stupid questions"
about N1MM software. I also found a very patient "Elmer" in
Minnesota, who walked me through some of the refinements of
N1MM. Until I found these two fellows, the answers I found from
the "so-called experts" on the MRRC reflector and elsewhere
were, in so many words "read to manual, dummy, it's all
there." That didn't do me any good.<br>
<br>
</font></font><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman">We
imbeciles, dummies, (you probably call us LIDS, so you might as
well use the word publicly) who aren't whiz kids with computers
or contesting, will use software designed for dummies which are
"plug and play." The networking type software that I've run
across is DEFINITELY NOT plug and play. <br>
<br>
73 de n8xx Hg<br>
.</font></font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/7/2012 5:39 PM, K9TM wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:DC068584-E621-42D3-9F55-F2A909F118C4@buckeye-express.com" type="cite"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6">
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><br>
</font></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>A log includes all qso's
made by an entrant.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<small><small><small>Each qso in a log includes a qso number.
The qso number starts at 1 and increments by 1 for each
qso up to the total number of qso's made in the log. </small></small></small></font>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>Simple,
right?</small></small></small></font></small></small></small>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>This applies to all
entrants, regardless of the number of
transmitters.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>QSO numbers allow anyone
on the bands (participants or swl's) to know how
someone is doing. They also gives a unique
piece of data that can be used for log checking.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>So think of a qso
number this way... some places that one goes
where there is queue have a device that says
now serving number ###, say 248 (pharmacy, sub
shop, deli, dmv, etc). Each person they
service, gets a number (but no two patrons
have the same number). That's all the qso
number is in a contest.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>As a further
demonstration using this example, each
location where this now serving number ### is
used typically have many people servicing
customers. View these people servicing
customers as transmitters in a radio contest.
View the now serving ### as the serial
number. They don't have a set of numbers for
each employee serving customers... they have
one set of numbers controlled by the now
serving ### method.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>Simple, right?</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>In the old days (still
works today) there were several way to
accomplish this for logging qso's. Anything
from index cards pre-numbered with a number,
to a flip a number thing to an electronic
counter with a button(s) to increment the
number, pre-numbered paper hand logging
sheets, etc. Each qso requires "buying a
number" which is assigned to a qso.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>This is all simple
until someone says they want to use a computer
and software that is not designed for this
type of use. <i>ed.- It is possible to have
software to do this, I've been doing it
since the early 80's.</i> Because
commercially available loggers haven't adopted
proper techniques to handle serial numbers in
contests for multi-transmitter environments,
contest sponsors have given relief so that
commercially available software can be used.
Note this relief is a work-around and should
not be thought of as the norm... logging
software vendors should strive to meet the
sponsors rules. The normal work-around is to
allow qso numbers by band for mult-ops. This
allows multiple transmitters to be setup by
band and provide a serial number for each band
starting at number 1, incrementing by 1 up to
the number of qso's made on that band.
Therefore the multi ends up with 5 logs (one
per band 80m-10m regardless of mode). These
logs are then appended together to submit one
complete log. This workaround has been around
for 20+ years.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>The problem is that
not everyone wants to setup their
multi-transmitter arrangement by band,
especially in mixed mode contests like qso
parties. Some want to do it by mode, ssb on
one transmitter and cw on another transmitter.
Some by band/mode (10 transmitters with
transmitters on: 80m cw, 75 ssb, 40m cw, 40m
ssb, 20cw, 20m ssb, 15m cw, 15m ssb, 10m cw,
10m ssb... therefore 10 different sets of
numbers starting at 1, incrementing by 1 up to
the number of qsos made per band/mode). Some
want to group bands (80m/20m on one xmtr and
40m/15m on another xmtr). The possibilities
are many. </small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>Contest sponsors will
not dictate to entrants how to setup their
multi transmitter setups. The category is
multi-xmtr and the entrant decides how best to
accomplish this and log it.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>This gets even more
complicated when people start out with a plan
of having a computer do one set of bands and
then they have issues and have to reassign
bands during the event. The most important
thing is to make sure that the same number is
not given out twice on the same band/mode.
Once say number 24 is given out on say 40m
cw, no other qso made by that entrant
regardless of which transmitter is used should
give out number 24 on 40m cw.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>Given the logging
software constraints, what people really end
up with is a log per computer... figuring
there is a computer per transmitter. If you
assign bands to a transmitter you'll end up
being ok. If you start moving bands between
transmitters... you'll create the possibility
of a mess.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>Using software which
does not allow networking will handicap the
group in terms of not being able to pass
information. Again, this is not a sponsor
topic... it's up to the entrant to do what
they are comfortable with or what
equipment/software they have available.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>It's hard to give
exact details of how to setup a multi. There
are many things to weigh. Logging is only a
small part of the issues involved in a multi
transmitter operation.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>Keep in mind the rules
and basic concept are really simple. The
workarounds for the logging software cloud
things and make it more difficult. It's not
the overall intent that is confusing, it's the
workaround that is confusing. Take out the
computer or find a way to have the computer be
a tool that actually adds value rather than
confusion and you'll be doing well.</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small><br>
</small></small></small></font></small></small></small></div>
<div><small><small><small><font class="Apple-style-span" size="6"><small><small><small>73, Tim K9TM</small></small></small></font></small></small></small><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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